New JW subject-matter directory here:
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jonathan dough
JoinedPosts by jonathan dough
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Did you ever think that Satan wasn't trying hard enough to tempt you?
by JimmyPage inthe wt would always say things like "satan knows our weaknesses and how to exploit them".. so if he knew i wouldn't be able to resist a hot chick as a teenager, why wasn't that wily serpent sending them my way by the bucketfuls?.
if he knew i wouldn't be able to resist a job offering me six figures a year, why wasn't that angry lion trying to devour my spirituality with it?.
it was damn disappointing!
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WTBTS Elder & Ministerial Servant Problems
by JW GoneBad ini attended a recent ministerial servant k m school on the east coast and the main school instructor mentioned among other things (part entitled: 'objective of the km school course') that the total number of ministerial servants is seriously less than it should be.
in times past the ratio of m ss to elders was much more than it is today.. in the u.s. apparently the total number of elders is 88,500+ as opposed to m ss 65,000. the numbers show & numbers don't lie: the society is running out of spiritual men.
the instructor stated that this is a new downward trend that has (in so many words) the society worried.. the next speaker (part entitled: 'why we must be spiritual men') added that in his years as a traveling servant the pool of m ss has always been much, much larger than it is today.
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jonathan dough
New JW subject-matter directory here:
http://www.144000.110mb.com/directory/jehovahs_witnesses_directory_beliefs.html
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Taking legal action against the JWs for DFing??? Need serious advice
by 2pink ini posted a thread a bit earlier about our impending judicial committee/dfing for celebrating "false religious holidays".
they have seen decor on the outside of our house, so i guess that is their "evidence" that we engage in false religion now!
my husband and i have talked and are serious about taking legal action against the jws if they try to df us against our will.
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jonathan dough
If the grounds are DFing, you will lose, guaranteed, if you're in the USA. Track down the Barbara Anderson decision, a link has been posted here a few years back. Nail in the coffin.
http://www.tsc.state.tn.us/OPINIONS/TCA/PDF/071/WatchtowerOpn.pdf
http://silentlambs.org/andersonlosesappeal.htm
Look for other grounds. There are many.
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The Mother of All Watchtower Errors
by Perry inyes ... i call it the mother of them all, why?
and i make a covenant with you just as my father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom.
and i make a covenant with you just as my father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom.
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jonathan dough
Perry is correct. Designs is antichrist.
http://144000.110mb.com/144000/i-3.html#IVBBd
d) The Jehovah's Witnesses' "covenant with Christ's followers" is a fabrication; it is not a valid separate covenant for yet another kingdom, but an administrative appointment with respect to the kingdom[Home]
Without a replacement covenant they lack a basis, or authority, for ruling during the thousand years. You could say they lack enabling legislation. Their answer to this dilemma is Jesus’ so-called ‘covenant with Christ’s followers,’ but this so-called “covenant with Christ’s followers” is not a covenant for yet another kingdom, but rather an appointment of authority to run, or continue to administer, the fledgling church, Christ’s kingdom of priests pursuant to the Davidic and New Covenant.Jesus’ Covenant With His Followers. On the night of Nisan 14, 33 C.E., after celebrating the Lord’s Evening Meal Jesus made this covenant with his faithful apostles. To the 11 faithful apostles he promised that they would sit on thrones (Lu 22:28-30; compare 2 Ti 2:12.) Later, he showed that this promise extended to all spirit-begotten ‘conquerors.’ (Re 3:21; see also Re 1:4-6; 5:9, 10; 20:6.) On the day of Pentecost he inaugurated this covenant toward them by the anointing with holy spirit those disciples present in the upper room in Jerusalem. (Ac 2:1-4, 33) Those who would stick with him through trials dying his kind of death (Php 3:10; Col 1:24), would reign with him, sharing his Kingdom rule. The covenant remains operative between Jesus Christ and these associate kings forever. - Re 22:5 (Insight, 524, 525)
As a covenant it is ineffectual and intrinsically unable to bring about the forgiveness of sin and human perfection, redeem man or grant everlasting life. Neither was it intended as a means of rule over earthly subjects. The kingdom which the Jehovah’s Witnesses claim is the object of their covenant is set out at Luke 22:28-30 and Matthew 19:27-30.
28 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant (“confer” NAB; “assign” ESV; “appoint” Green’s Literal) with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. (Luke 22:28-30 NWT).
27 Then Peter said to him in reply: “Look! We have left all things and followed you; what actually will there be for us?” 28 Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone that has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive many times more (a “hundredfold” Green’s Literal) and will inherit everlasting life. (Matt. 19:27-30 NWT).
The Jehovah’s Witnesses populate this covenant with the “bride” taken out during under the temporary New Covenant.
The purpose of the covenant is to take out a people for Jehovah’s name as a part of Abraham’s “seed.” (Ac 15:14) They become the “bride” of Christ, and are the body of persons whom Christ takes into a covenant for the Kingdom to rule with Him. (Joh 3:29; 2 Cor 11:2; Re 21:9; Luke 22:29; Re 1:4-6; 5:9, 10; 20:6) The purpose of the new covenant requires that it continue in operation until all of the “Israel of God” are resurrected to immortality in the heavens. (Insight, 524)
First, Jesus’ use of the Greek word diathemai means foremost to put apart, dispose (by assignment, compact or bequest [Vine‘s]). And even though it can mean ‘covenant,’ in this particular context, with respect to this specific verse, Luke 22:29 means to arrange, dispose or appoint.
Diathemi, a verb … (2)… means to arrange, dispose of, one’s own affairs (2a) of something that belongs to one: The Lord used it of His disciples with reference to the kingdom which is to be theirs hereafter, and of Himself in the same respect, as that which has been “appointed” for him by His Father: “And I appoint (diathemi) unto you a kingdom, as My Father hath appointed (diathemi) unto me” Lk 22:29;” (Vine’s, 67)
Other commentators are in accord, that the kingdom was to be his disciples’ thereafter. He was not creating another kingdom for the 144,000 to rule over earthly subjects in the next life. “As (the kingdom’s) administrators they are to share in it; hence they are to join with Jesus in the eschatological feast when he has come into His kingdom…” (G.W.H. Lampe, Peake’s Commentary, 840). Jesus was departing and left the apostles in charge.
The granting of the right to sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel was specific to the apostles, not a general grant of power for the 144,000 to rule over earthly subjects under Revelation 20:4-6 during the thousand year reign.
Furthermore, the specific nature of the grant to the apostles to "judge" is clarified at Matthew 19:27-30. Everyone (not just the 144,000) who give up many things will receive a hundred times more and will inherit eternal life; but not everyone sits on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. That extra privilege of judging is reserved to the apostles, not the 144,000.
Secondly, a seemingly odd inauguration of this “covenant with Christ’s followers” has the Jehovah’s Witnesses borrowing and sharing the same Holy Spirit poured out at Pentecost that inaugurated the New Covenant, over the same group of people, (Insight, 524) even though the New Covenant is, according to them, severely limited in duration and scope, and this covenant was never ratified with Christ’s blood.
That aside, the scriptural support for extending the specific grant of authority to the apostles to include the future 144,000 is weak, if that. They teach that, “Those who would stick with him through trials dying his kind of death (Phil 3;10; Col 1:24) would reign with him sharing his kingdom rule” (Insight, 525). But that is also in error because a) many of the 144,000 have not died horrible, painful, tortuous deaths like Christ’s, b) Phil 3:10 refers to Paul’s “sharing of his sufferings in order to “attain the ressurection of the dead.” It says nothing about suffering in order to reign or judge over man during the thousand years, and Christ’s appointment was not because of their suffering, but because they stuck with him through his trials, and c) in Col 1:24 all Paul is rejoicing in is his own suffering, with no mention of how that places him on a throne during the millennial reign.
Third, those who reign at Revelation 20:4-6, the souls of those beheaded, are not the same as those on thrones entrusted with judgment, as the Jehovah‘s Witnesses propose; so they can’t be “judging” the resurrected under these provisions as the claim.
Then I saw thrones; those who sat on them were entrusted with judgment. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the world of God and who had not worshipped the beast or its image nor had accepted its mark on their foreheads or lands. They came to life and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over these; they will be priests of God and Christ, and they will reign with him [for] the thousand years. (Rev. 20:4-6 NAB) (also: I saw, ESV; And I saw the souls, NASB; I also saw the souls, CEV)
A literal translation does not read “Yes, I saw the soul …” at Revelation 20:4 as the Jehovah’s Witnesses have interpreted it in order to associate these two groups of people as being the same, and place the 144,000 on judgment seats.
Furthermore, the 144,000 would have to share the reign with the Great Crowd who, like those who reign, have “not worshiped the beast or its image nor accepted its mark on their foreheads or hands.” This places the Great Crowd up in heaven, not on earth.Fourth, since the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the twelve tribes of Israel at Revelation 7:1-8 are the anointed 144,000 and they are to judge the twelve tribes of Israel pursuant to Luke 22:28-30 and Matthew 19:28, they end up judging themselves.
Fifth, Christ’s so-called “covenant with his followers,” as a redemptive covenant, is void and ineffective because it was never ratified with blood: “For where a covenant is, the death of him covenanting must be offered” (Heb. 9:16 Green’s Literal; see also Heb. 9:15-21). “… Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness,” (Heb 9:22 NAB), and if there is no forgiveness of sin there can be no reconciliation, no “perfection.
Only Christ’s blood can form the basis of reconciliation (Eph. 2:13-16), redemption (Rom. 3:24-25), justification and salvation (Rom. 5:9), sanctification (Heb. 10:29), and life itself (John 6:53-56). Without Christ’s shed blood ratifying the so-called “covenant with Christ’s followers,” none of this is attainable. But it is under the New Covenant.
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The New Covenant Discussion
by Listener ini left the org many years ago as a teenager.
i started looking more closely at their doctrines a few months ago to work out if they really have the truth.
when i cam across the notion that jesus is not mediator for everyone i was startled and have been looking at the issue a lot more closely.
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The New Covenant Discussion
by Listener ini left the org many years ago as a teenager.
i started looking more closely at their doctrines a few months ago to work out if they really have the truth.
when i cam across the notion that jesus is not mediator for everyone i was startled and have been looking at the issue a lot more closely.
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Most-Ignored Scriptures by JWs
by Mad Sweeney inthe watchtower has been known for over 130 years as a great scriptural cherry-picker.
they pick out disparate unrelated verses and combine them to support the wackiest of wacky doctrines.. on the other hand there are many scriptures they almost never address, whether because they contradict wt doctrine or because they simply don't have a clue what they mean or how to spin them to the wt advantage.. one of these is revelation 19:1 that mentions a "great crowd" "in heaven.
" the only time it is ever brought up it is dismissed.
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jonathan dough
Of COURSE Jesus never gave up being the Almighty God- because he never WAS. He said there was only ONE PERSON who was- his Father. Until you accept that, you will alawys be no more than a churchoid!
You're not paying attention. Of course orthodox Christian teaching accepts that Jesus, the created humanity, the creature, is not the Almighty, and that is why he could claim that God was his father. There is no contradiction whatsoever if you recognize that Christ was and is both God and man. The man of the God-man is not the Almighty. You also need to read up on what Christians mean by the word "person." And, I believe that your statement that "He said there was only ONE PERSON who was- his Father," is not accurate. Did he use the word Person?
It is not reasonable to believe that Jesus Christ was nothing more than a man, a human, as the Jehovah's Witnesses preach, and that before he walked the earth he was a created angel. Furthermore, the Jehovah's Witnesses incorrectly teach that trinitarianism promotes the worship of three gods; it doesn't. Christians only worship the one true God, YHWH.
Furthermore, the Jehovah's Witnesses preach, incorrectly, that trinitarian Christians teach that the created humanity of Jesus, the creature, is God Almighty; but that is also false. Orthodox Christians - the overwhelming majority of Catholic and Protestant churches - teach that: “The humanity of Christ is a creature, it is not God” (Catholic Encyclopedia, 922).I suggest you begin your study with the question of whether Jesus was, and is, God, in the immanent Trinitarian sense. It all starts there. Then, understand that Christians also believe that Jesus was man. Hence, God-man. How these come together is a matter of faith, like the resurrection.
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PARADISE EARTH OR HEAVEN? OR BOTH?
by exjw2814 inthe jw's teach about the hope we have for living on a paradise earth.
is that what jesus taught when he came to the earth ?
the last time i checked he was referring to heaven, not earth.
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jonathan dough
Because the earth shall be destroyed, the resurrected, and the Great Crowd, cannot be ruled over by the 144,000 from heaven[Home]
The Greek word basileuo “to reign,” does not only mean to “rule over a people.” It is often used as metaphor, such as to “reign in life” (Rom. 5:17) where ‘shall reign in life’ indicates the activity of life in fellowship with Christ in His sovereign power, reaching its fullness hereafter; 1 Cor. 4:8…” (Vine’s, 52). One can also reign over sin (Rom. 6:12). Grace can also reign (Rom. 5:21). With this in mind it does not automatically or logically follow that there must be someone over whom the 144,000 reign on earth in the same way that contemporary governments rule over a people in today’s world.
As a matter of fact, even though the Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the Bible does not tell us what the 144,000 will do after the thousand year reign is over, Revelation 22:3,4 informs us that God's servants will worship him and "shall reign forever and ever." But reign over who? They claim that at that time no one will stand between God and man, most certainly not Jesus (Insight, 170); the kingdom will have been handed over, death will be no more and man will be forever perfect. But if that is true the word "reign" cannot mean to rule over humans on earth, especially on an earth destined for fire which is made clear by 2 Peter 3:10,11: "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be dissolved by fire and the earth and everything in it will be found out. ... everything is to be dissolved this way," (NAB; "Total destruction is assumed (11)," notes 3,10).
Granted, the Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe the earth will be destroyed and base this teaching in large part on Psalm 37:29 where the psalmist wrote, "The just will possess the land (earth) and live in it forever." However, the earth "wears out like a garment (Isa. 51:6), so the word "forever" is hyperbole, and nothing here indicates that there won't be a hiatus, or break, in the earth's habitation. Psalm 37:29 does not say man will inherit the earth continuously without interruption, and Revelation 21:10,27 suggests that reconstituted, glorified man, without the warts, will come back down out of heaven sometime in the future: "He took me in spirit to a great high mountain and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God." "Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."
Actually, the earth has experienced significant disruptions evidenced by the annihilation of the dinosaurs and great flood of Noah's day. Remember, we are dealing with geologic time, and cycling through another ice age that would wipe off the post-apocalyptic mess left in the wake of Armageddon is entirely within reason; it is more reasonable than handing the Great Crowd brooms and haz-mat suits and ordering them to restore the earth into a paradise.
More to the point is Peter's comparison of the earth's pending fiery destruction to the great flood which is a real, not metaphorical, example of earth's fate as detailed at 2 Peter 3:5-13: "They deliberately ignore the fact that the heavens existed of old and earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God; through these the world that then existed was destroyed, deluged with water. The present heavens and earth have been reserved by the same word of fire kept for the day of judgment and of destruction of the godless." Jesus likewise made it known that ultimate destruction will be modeled after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, where Luke 17:29 makes it abundantly clear God destroyed them all. That man's governments are changed in the process goes without saying. Remember, "...he was seated on the throne and said, "Behold, I am making all things new. (Rev. 21:5).To "reign," then, must mean to reign in life or over sin, and old-world government models such as king David's rule over God's people do not necessarily apply to a new world, a new earth and a new creation. As a point of interest, this is the meaning ascribed to the concept of "reign" by the Catholic church.
Like other numerical values in this book, the thousand years are not to be taken literally; they symbolize the long period of time between the chaining up of Satan (a symbol for Christ's resurrection victory over death and the forces of evil) and the end of the world. During this time God's people share in the glorious reign of God that is present to them by virtue of their baptismal victory over death and sin; cf Rom 6, 1-8; Jn 5, 24-25; 16, 33; 1 Jn 3,14; Eph 2,1. (NAB, note Rev. 20:1-6)
Finally, if the Great Crowd is in heaven and not on earth as the Jehovah's Witnesses claim, the 144,000 cannot rule over them as earthly subjects.
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Most-Ignored Scriptures by JWs
by Mad Sweeney inthe watchtower has been known for over 130 years as a great scriptural cherry-picker.
they pick out disparate unrelated verses and combine them to support the wackiest of wacky doctrines.. on the other hand there are many scriptures they almost never address, whether because they contradict wt doctrine or because they simply don't have a clue what they mean or how to spin them to the wt advantage.. one of these is revelation 19:1 that mentions a "great crowd" "in heaven.
" the only time it is ever brought up it is dismissed.
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jonathan dough
Mad: In other words the Almighty DID give up being God when becoming man- a creation! The 'umanity' of Christ...you mean he actually became a man????? WOW! What a REVELATION!!!!
No, not at all. The Word, God the Son, the second person of the Trinity, never stopped being God. He became God-Man, the hypostatic union, by assuming a human nature. He was and is a divine person who assumed a human nature, not God who stopped being God and became a creature. This is where your confusion lies. http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-2.html
God the Son, the Word, when He emptied Himself to take the form of a slave never ceased being fully God. It was his Glory that was veiled for a time being; he temporarily resigned his “status.”
Christ possessed equality with God prior to His incarnation, and then for a time veiled that glory, being always God in all of the co-equal attributes, but in the incarnation never using His Godly powers to better Himself. He was fully God, fully man, God taking on the likeness of sinful flesh (Rom 8:3), not a man adding Godliness. (Strong and Vine’s, 42)
ME: Furthermore, the fact that He is referred to as the "image" doesn't help your case. Angels are invisible spirit creatures as well, and when they manifested themselves to Abraham, the physical "image" does not mean they stopped being angels and were separate creatures.
Mad: Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! So, they were images of THEMSELVES? Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaa! No bearing, either way- so your accusation of us lying reveals who the REAL Liar is.....
ME: Do you sincerely believe that speaking in such a childish manner helps your cause any? You make all JWs by association look foolish and immature. So keep it up. You're doing us all a big favor.
Here is more information on the God-Man: http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#5
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"Romans 8:10 "But if Christ is in you ..." (Not in Union with you)
Is Jesus literally living inside of millions of Christians,
Yes, this is precisely what they teach. You are simply evading the Word by changing it, and we all know what will happen to those who change God's word. That He is also in union with the Christian goes without saying.
Looking at it with church goggles on, we see God literally living in millions of human bodies, Christ literally living in millions of human bodies, and millions of humans literally living in God, and millions of humans literally living in Christ! WHOOP_WHOOP! Call the Paddywagon!
Yes, that is precisely what they teach in a "spiritual" sense, although you're stretching the logic too far claiming that Christians are God Almighty as a result. That's the JW spin. You are reading too much into that. That's just silly. We are dealing with Spirit, Jehovah is the Spirit, Christ is the Spirit, Christ is in you, God is in you, the Holy Spirit dwells in you. The three persons of the Trinity are not separable. And the argument can be made that glorified Christians are indeed folded into the Trinity, as part of the life stream; that we share in the divine nature.
Christ made it PLAIN what was meant next-
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.
No, trinitarians- Christians are NOT God Almighty, but one in UNION with Him and Christ!
This is not the issue. The question is whether Christ is IN the Christian, whether the Holy Spirit and God can be IN a person. There are many, many examples of the indwelling. We're not dealing with flesh and blood persons like you or I, but spirit.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses erroneously think of “Person” as an individual self-conscious human person (Encyclopedia of Religion, 57), and we humans don’t engage in the kind of conduct the three Persons of the Trinity do, such as inner dialogue where people combined within a human person speak to each other. Or, they argue that the Holy Spirit cannot be a person because it appeared as a dove or flames of fire, never in the form of a human. And, it seems irrational to them that one such person can inhabit another person, so the Holy Person cannot be a person (Should You Believe, Chapter 6). They write:
On one occasion the holy spirit appeared as a dove. On another occasion it appeared as tongues of fire - never as a person. (Should You Believe, Chapter 8).
[R]egarding Samson, Judges 14:6 relates: “The spirit of Yahweh seized on him and though he had no weapon in his hand he tore the lion in pieces.” (JB) Did a divine person actually enter or seize Samson, manipulating his body to do what he did? No, it was really “the power of the LORD [that] made Samson strong. (TEV) (Should You Believe, Chapter 6) (emphasis added).
A comparison of Bible texts that refer to the holy spirit shows that it is spoken of as ‘filling’ people; they can be ‘baptized’ with it; and they can be “anointed” with it … None of these expressions would be appropriate if the holy spirit were a person. (Reasoning from the Scriptures [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1985], 380) (Reasoning)
First, the Jehovah's Witnesses fail to recognize that we are dealing with spirit, not flesh (the Holy Spirit is, after all, spirit), and the Bible is replete with examples of spirit persons entering individuals such as the spirit person Satan who entered Judas (Luke 22:3), and spirit demons who routinely inhabit people (Matthew 8:29-31). Furthermore, Jehovah is a spirit person and is the Holy Spirit who dwells in the Christian believer (2 Corinthians 3:17, 18 NWT), as does Christ (Romans 8:9-11; see also John 4:24). The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ objections in this regard are groundless.
And simply because the Holy Spirit took the form of a dove or tongues of fire and not a human person does not mean He is not a spirit person. After all, the Almighty is a spirit person though invisible (Colossians 1:15). Angels are spirit persons who took human form, but their mere appearance as humans does not mean they are angels, or that angels who never took human form are not spirit (Genesis 18).
Second, “Person” should be regarded as a contemporary misnomer, an imperfect expression because it connotes a separate rational and moral individual. It is a word erroneously derived from the Latin persona and misapplied in the English modern era, as the Jehovah's Witnesses have done.
Persona: A Latin word regularly used to refer to the three ‘persons’ of the Trinity and to the one ‘person’ of Christ. It therefore fulfills the role in Latin theology performed by hypostasis in Greek. The natural translation into ‘person’ in English is misleading. Persona originally meant a ‘mask’ and then a ‘role.’ It is used to indicate an individual in his or her external presentation, and does not convey the idea of self-consciousness or the internal psychological content suggested by the English word ‘person’ with its close link to the word ‘personality.’ (Oxford, 1210)
Much more here:
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144000
by jehovahsheep insince 1879 how many different ones associated with the wts do you think have stated they were of the 144000 ?
for example in 1948 alone there was 25000.with perhaps hundreds of thousands 1st century christians reaching out for the heavenly reward-we can see their premise is ludricious.the wts doctrinal house is built on the shaky foundation of ct russell.
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